hexerina
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Ich finde schon, dass man das als Treffen bezeichnen kann, schlieÃlich musste Harry Voldemort ja auch da entweder Lebend entkommen oder in der Kammer sterben.
Es war zwar nicht der "wirkliche" Dunkle Lord, aber sein früheres Ich... 
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14.03.2006 18:56 |
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FawkesThePhoenix 
Schüler
Dabei seit: 08.11.2003
Alter: 119
Herkunft: Phoenix Mama aus China, Phoenix Papa aus Ãgypten
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weià von euch jemand so interessante mathematische sachen über "7"? Z.B. mit der 9:
9x3 = 27, 2+7=9
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14.03.2006 19:13 |
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DIEOhrenschützer
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Schlimmer... es war ein Splitter seiner Seele. Es war ein Teil von Voldemort, also für mich eindeutig ein Aufeinandertreffen.
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14.03.2006 19:19 |
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Yoko-chan
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Schlimmer... es war ein Splitter seiner Seele. Es war ein Teil von Voldemort, also für mich eindeutig ein Aufeinandertreffen.[/quote]
War es nicht 
Das ECHTE Medailon wurde ja von R.A.B. vorher entfernt.
Harry und Dumbledore fanden nur das Fake.
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14.03.2006 19:40 |
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Quibbler
Schülerin
Dabei seit: 08.11.2003
Alter: 51
Herkunft: where no man has gone before
Themenstarter 
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Ja, das Treffen mit dem Tagebuch-Horcrux als Voldemort Junior habe ich auch gemeint, nicht den Ring oder den Fake-Horcrux. Wenn jedes Zusammentreffen mit einem Horcrux ein Treffen mit Voldemort bedeuten würde, dann würde die Theorie ja gar nicht stimmen, oder? Dann wären es mehr Treffen als 7.
Und zu der Numerologie: Ich dachte man nimmt dazu das Geburtsdatum und nicht die Namen?
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15.03.2006 10:28 |
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hexerina
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@Quibbler
soweit ich das weiÃ, kann man in der Numerologie Geburtsdatum und Namen nehmen. zumindest hatte man mir das so erklärt gehabt...
Voldemort hat am 31. Geburtstag, richtig?
ist eine Seite, wo man Numerologie mit dem Datum machen kann.
aber passen tut das auch nicht wirklich:
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15.03.2006 12:33 |
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Yoko-chan
unregistriert
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Ups... mein Fehler. Daran hatte ich net mehr gedacht.
Nu ja, da wird wohl in Band 7 der 7. Kampf stattfinden 
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15.03.2006 16:44 |
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Quibbler
Schülerin
Dabei seit: 08.11.2003
Alter: 51
Herkunft: where no man has gone before
Themenstarter
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Ja, aber in Buch 5 stand komischerweise:
" he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far "
Also laut Dumbledore doch nur vier mal. Irgendeins der Treffen zählte er nicht mit. Vielleicht hat er die Anwesenheit von Voldemort in Quirrels Kopf nur einmal gezählt und ignoriert das Treffen im Wald? Im Unterricht hat Quirrel Harry nicht angegriffen, aber im Wald schon! Vielleicht zählte auch Dumbledore das erste Treffen nicht mit, als nämlich Harry Voldemort für Jahre auÃer Gefecht setzte. Im Grunde denke ich sowieso, dass Voldemort Harry nicht nur einmal über den Weg laufen wird. Er wird natürlich seine Todesser, Riesen, Inferi und Dementoren hinter ihm herschicken, aber er wird auch selbst auftauchen, um ihn zu bekämpfen. Jetzt wo Dumbledore nicht mehr ist und wo Petunias Schutz nichts mehr taugt sowieso!
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15.03.2006 21:06 |
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Bernhard Nowak
Schüler
Dabei seit: 26.08.2004
Alter: 60
Herkunft: Rödermark
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Für mich wird es sieben Treffen zwischen Harry und Voldemort gegeben haben und dies habe ich auch irgendwo gelesen:
1.) Voldemort und Harry als Baby
2.) Harry trifft Voldemort erstmals im verbotenen Wald (Band 1)
3.) Harry trifft Quirrell/Voldemort am Ende von Band 1
4.) Harry trifft Tom Riddle am Ende von Band 2
5.) Harry trifft Voldemort auf dem Friedhof Band 4
6.) Harry begegnet Voldemort im Ministerium am Ende von Band 5
7.) Harry und Voldemort treffen nochmals am Ende von Band 7 letztmals zusammen.
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King: You're a monster, Urquhart.
Urquhart:You might very well think that, Sir, but your opinion doesn't count for very much now, does it? Good day, Sir. 
Ian Richardson in: "House of cards, Teil 2: To play the King"
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15.03.2006 23:20 |
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Quibbler
Schülerin
Dabei seit: 08.11.2003
Alter: 51
Herkunft: where no man has gone before
Themenstarter
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@Bernhard Nowak: Ich denke ja auch, dass es insgesamt 7 sein werden, aber der Tom Riddle aus dem Tagebuch war ja "nur" ein Horcrux und Dumbledore hat am Ende von Band 5 nur 4 Treffen aufgelistet, bei denen Harry Voldemort traf. Was mich dabei beschäftigt, ist die Frage, ob Harry deswegen in Band 7 mehrmals über den Weg laufen wird, oder doch nur einmal, nämlich beim Endkampf.
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16.03.2006 13:28 |
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Silvermoon
Schülerin
Dabei seit: 06.06.2005
Alter: 33
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War tatsächlich der Riddle aus dem Tagebuch ein Horcrux?? Ich dachte, das Tagebuch wäre einer gewesen und der "Tom" darin eine zum Leben erweckte Erinnerung 
Sonst hätte Harry ja nicht das Tagebuch zerstören müssen, sondern die LV-Illusion angreifen. Andererseits... wenn es reichen würde den Behälter eines Horcruxes zu zerstören...
Und die Begegnung im Wald, kann man die wirklich zählen??? Es war doch Quirrell, der da rumschwebte und das Blut für LV getrunken hat. Und Harry war sich der Präsenz des Dunklen Lords ja da gar nicht bewusst. Was natürlich nicht heiÃen muss, das die Begegnung deswegen wneige rzählt.
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16.03.2006 13:38 |
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Bernhard Nowak
Schüler
Dabei seit: 26.08.2004
Alter: 60
Herkunft: Rödermark
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John Granger hat jetzt in einem neuen Aufsatz auf seiner Homepage über die Bedeutung der Zahl sieben nachgedacht. Seine - an die Userin Alexa erinnernden - Gedanken dazu finden sich unter:
Den Ausschnitt über die Bedeutung der Zahl Sieben - Thema dieses Threads - poste ich hier hinein:
"Why Seven is the âMost Powerfully Magic Numberâ
Letâs start with why there are seven books and why Tom Riddle, Jr., thinks that seven Horcruxes are a sure pass to immortality. The answer to the seven question also explains why the Great Work of alchemy is often described as a seven stage process and even why there are seven days of the week and seven players on a Hogwarts Quidditch team. Seven, in brief, is the number of transcendence or divinization.
Every Harry Potter book is an alchemical drama and the whole series is, too. The alchemical work, though often represented by three colors as beginning-middle-and-end âstagesâ (black followed by white followed by red), is a seven part cycle of transformation. This is why there are seven Harry Potter novels. Even Lord Voldemort understands that seven is more than a symbol for a quantity greater than six but less than eight. As he says to Professor Slughorn in their first discussion of Horcruxes:
âYes, sir,â said Riddle. âWhat I donât understand, though - just out of curiosity - I mean, would one Horcrux be much use? Can you only split your soul once? Wouldnât it be better, make you stronger, to have your soul in more pieces, I mean, for instance, isnât seven the most powerfully magic number, wouldnât seven -?â (Half-Blood Prince, chapter 23, Scholastic p 498)
Unfortunately, Professor Slughorn interrupts young Riddle at this point so we miss his lesson in demonically applied arithmancy. We can guess from context and traditional numerology, though, that Riddleâs unfinished question would end âwouldnât seven Horcruxes effectively make you immortal and God-like?â I have read just enough fandom âNew Ageâ alchemy speculations, nonsense about chakras, and even cut-and-paste layovers of western church sacraments to Harry Potter novels to realize that the meaning and symbolism of number fascinates people but largely escapes their understanding.
This is what one would have to expect in a historical period aptly described as âthe reign of quantityâ in which numbers are only understood as ciphers for specific quantities. Traditionally numbers represent qualities and relations primarily and quantities only incidentally. Here is a corrective âcrash courseâ in traditional numerology as it relates to the number seven from an essay by Martin Lings, a tutorial student and friend of C. S. Lewis, and brilliant poet, critic, and apologist for tradition in his own right. He explains why seven is the number representing the perfection of the human being as a microcosm of creation:
In the series of seven figure numbers there are two that stand out from the rest as having an essentially Divine significance, namely, one and seven; between them, as between alpha and omega, is enacted the whole drama of existence. One is the Creator; two signifies the Spirit [ in a footnote Lings, a Sufi by confession, explains âthe Spirit, in Islamic doctrine, is the summit and synthesis of all creation, opening to the Uncreated and therefore possessing implicitly, if not explicitly, the Uncreated Aspect that is none other than the Third Person of the Christian Trinityâ], three Heaven, four earth, and five man, whose place is as a quintessence at the centre of the four elements, the four points of the compass, and the four seasons of the year, which characterize the earthly state.
But man cannot fulfil his function as mediator between Heaven and earth without the transcendent dimension of depth and of height, the vertical axis that passes through the centre of all degrees of existence and is none other than the Tree of Life. This superhuman dimension is implicit in the central point of the quintessence but does not become explicit until the number five is transcended. It is through six that the centre becomes the axis, that the seed becomes the tree, and six is the number of primordial man in the state in which he was created on the sixth day. As universal mediator he measures out, with his six directions, the whole of existence, and beyond six lies that from which existence proceeds and to which it returns. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all his work (Genesis II:3).
Seven thus signifies repose in the Divine Center. From that point of view it is the symbol of Absolute Finality and Perfection, appearing in this world as a Divine Seal upon earthly things, as in the number of the days of the week, the planets, the sacraments of the [western] church, and many other septenaries, the mention of which would take us too far from our subject.
Martin Lings, âThe Seven Deadly Sins in the Light of the Symbolism of Number,â Symbol and Archetype: A Study in the Meaning of Existence, Quinta Essentia, pp 98-99)
One of the septenaries echoing the Genesis creation account that Lings, once Keeper of Oriental Manuscripts in the British Museum and the British Library, means here is the seven stage alchemical work. He quotes at length from Titus Burckhardtâs Alchemy in his magisterial The Secret of Shakespeare to reveal the alchemical structures and meaning of Anthony and Cleopatra, Romeo and Juliet, and The Tempest, among others. Burchardtâs exposition of the meaning of alchemy, too, largely depends on the correspondence of the seven planets and metals within the rotation of the elements (see Alchemy, Penguin books, 1972, chapters 4 and 5).
Alchemy is a seven stage work because its aim is to restore the alchemist to the state of Adamic or primordial perfection (6) and transcend this for communion or apotheosis with God (7). This restorative labor in correspondence with the purification of metals requires seven turnings or stages in which all the imperfections and imbalances within the soul are resolved by reagents causing the psyche to expand and contract (the solve et coagula of alchemical formula).
I guess the easiest way to understand this or at least get a mental model for it is to think of the seven day week. Time per se, of course, isnât organized into hours, weeks, or months any more than space on a map is naturally organized into counties, states, or nations. Human beings create these mental categories into which we pack our conceptions of time and space. Time categories, unlike the political lines on a map, however, are not accidental or arbitrary. The seven day week is the least arbitrary, in fact; it resembles the lines representing natural features on a map such as rivers and mountains.
An historical aside is helpful here. The Soviet Communists in Russia tried on several occasions to destroy the seven day week. They replaced it once with a five day week and another time with a ten day week (this last in imitation of the French Revolutionary experiment in calendar reform, which attempt also failed spectacularly). The reason the Soviets and French revolutionaries attempted to âreformâ the week from seven days is also the reason they were unable to uproot this conception. It is tied to metaphysical numerancy that is as hard to deny or âthrow offâ as the sequence of day and night, perhaps even harder.
We order our lives around the seven day week whatever our specific âreligiousâ beliefs because the cycle represents the progression from one to seven described by Lings and common to the understanding of the revealed traditions of the world. Seven is the number of transcendence. We have seven days of âexpansion and contraction,â moonlight and sunlight, active and passive states, to move from spiritual lead to gold, i.e., from a fallen state to theosis, or repose in God. Sunday is the feast of the Resurrection and Godâs rest (the Russian word for Sunday is the word for âResurrection,â which probably inspired much of the Soviet desire to destroy the seven day week). We move each week from one resurrection to another return to and repose in the Divine Center.
This belief in a weekly cycle has historical and social reinforcements, of course, but that the Soviet and French failed in their attempts to eradicate it in their desire to âfreeâ their citizenry of such âsuperstitionsâ (and murdering millions in their rush to advance their ideological atheism), suggests at least that this unit of time could be part of the human hard wiring package. The seven day week may not be just a software program that can be switched out after formatting the cerebral hard drive. Human conceptions of time, unlike geographical conceptions that can be gerrymandered, seem to be linked to the nature of reality. We think of the week of seven days, perhaps, the same way we think of a day as a unit of daylight and darkness. Seven days is a cycle of change for us to realize or neglect as we choose but a cycle of change nonetheless.
Magical education is a seven year process, not seven days, but it, too, like the alchemical work and the metaphysical week, is about human transformation or âtransfiguration.â Ms. Rowling suggests this via the Wizard game, Quidditch, of seven players in which a Seeker flying above the fray for the most part seizes a Golden Snitch, an elusive golden ball with wings. This septenary of players is a pointer to Alchemy both in having the âseeking of goldâ (and not money, per se) as its end and in the description of the Golden Snitch. The popular edition of Burckhardtâs Alchemy: Science of the Cosmos, Science of the Soul (Penguin Books, 1972) has a Golden Snitch on its cover, believe it or not, in a reproduction of a Seventeenth century alchemical drawing (the âwinged sphereâ represents materia prima, p. 194; the flying golden ball appears frequently in other alchemy texts). Hogwarts, the magical academy, is an alchemical seven year work in its games and studies - and to be sure we get this point, we know the School is directed by Albus Dumbledore, who, his chocolate frog card tells us, is âparticularly famous⦠for his work in alchemyâ (Philosopherâs Stone, chapter 6, Scholastic sc pp 102-103).
Why does the young Tom Riddle, Jr., though, who understands that seven is âthe most powerfully magic number,â want to create seven Horcruxes to achieve immortality? Because he wishes to ape the âmagic of transcendenceâ by which immortality is rightly achieved by creating a path of ego that is the inversion of the traditional way of communion. Instead of resolving the contraries of hot & cold, dry & moist, that make up the four elements and four humors of the human person to become the Quintessence and then climb the Tree of Life to the Divine Center, Riddle wants to âhold onâ to his individual imbalances and imperfections. The Dark Lord wants his ego, the most ephemeral aspect of the human person with the closest ties to the body and the block to real immortality, to be eternal.
As the saying goes, however, if you want things to stay the same, everything will have to change. Riddleâs seven fold way to immortality instead of peaceful resolution of âothernessâ by love and a seeking of peace in balance is a way of asserting his being personally above any principle; in short, his way is the way of murder, materialism, and idolatry. He pours his soul into material objects representing the four elements (represented by the mythic four founders of Hogwarts) after asserting his greater right to life than others by acts of murder. Riddleâs seven staged path is a return and repose only in himself rather than in God - and, of course, this materialistic atheism makes him less human as he proceeds down the path (which Ms. Rowling represents via the changes in his physical appearance from something handsome and deiform to something demonic).
Harry in contrast, at the end of six cycles of purification, is described by the Headmaster Alchemist as being âpure in heartâ (cf., Matthew 5:8) and as having âa soul that is untarnished and wholeâ (Half-Blood Prince, chapter 23, Scholastic p 511). Harryâs job in defeating Voldemort now is to find and âdestroyâ the four founders idols Lord Voldemort has created out of the pieces of his own soul, unite the four houses and the four magical brethren, and resolve at last the remaining imperfections within himself to complete the Alchemical Workâs seventh stage."
Zitatende
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King: You're a monster, Urquhart.
Urquhart:You might very well think that, Sir, but your opinion doesn't count for very much now, does it? Good day, Sir.
Ian Richardson in: "House of cards, Teil 2: To play the King"
Dieser Beitrag wurde 1 mal editiert, zum letzten Mal von Bernhard Nowak: 07.05.2006 14:18.
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07.05.2006 13:58 |
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Quibbler
Schülerin
Dabei seit: 08.11.2003
Alter: 51
Herkunft: where no man has gone before
Themenstarter
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Sehr interessant! Voldemort ist aber keineswegs auf dem Weg zu einem Ãbermenschen, finde ich, eher viel weniger, er ist sogar weniger als ein Mensch. Er denkt nur er sei mehr, aber das ist nicht wahr: Er hat sich selbst zerstört, verstümmelt. Vielleicht wünscht er sich göttlich zu sein, aber er ist in die falsche Richtung gegangen. Der Gedanke, die Welt komplett zu bekommen ist sehr interessant, aber nur für Harry. Eine Welt ist für Harry ( und viele andere) nur dann in besser, wenn Voldemort nicht darin ist. Und es braucht mindestens 7 Schritte um ihn zu besiegen. Aber ob die Welt dann komplett ist? Die Geschichte zeigte, es gibt immer wieder neue Bösewichter. Grindelwald war der letzte, vor Voldemort. Man kann nur immer wieder versuchen, sie wieder und wieder aufzuhalten, so etwas ähnliches sagte auch Dumbledore.
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07.05.2006 15:30 |
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