 Discussion in English -- [SPOILER!] Dead or alive? |
ChingChuan
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| Discussion in English -- [SPOILER!] Dead or alive? |
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Hi everyone 
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of course the non-German-speaking people also want to talk about HBP, so this is the first thread in English....
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I think many of you have already seen the site I think it's quite useful in this discussion, so please read that site first
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At first I thought Dumbledore was dead, I didn't even think about the possibility he could be alive. Yet when I read this site I started to think about it, and I now believe he's not dead. Why? There is too much proof that either it wasn't the real Dumbledore or that Dumbledore blown off the tower but could save himself.
Why should Dumbledore, who of course possesses his own memories, have to get one of is OWN memories out of some glass blottle? I think it would be quite convincing if Dumbledore (or at least, the Dumbldore towards the end of the book) turned out to be an impostor (maybe for his own safety? What if that withered hand impaired him too much?)...
On the site about Dumbledore not being dead, there's a very convincing argument about the "expression of hatred" on Snape's face.
And, Snape has always respected Dumbledore and I think he is willing to sacrifice his life for Dumbledore, because of the simple reason Dumbledore him. He wouldn't trust anyone who used to be a Death Eater, would he?
Snape has had many oppertunities to kill Dumbledore or Harry (he lies to Bellatrix because I don't think he's that stupid to make any evidence point towards him) so he's waited a little bit long to make it look like he really murdered Dumbledore...
There's also the Avada Kedavra Curse. It did not work like it did on other occasions (Frank Bryce, Cedric Diggory) because they all were dead before they hit the ground. Dumbledore was levitated over the edge of the tower, maybe he could slow himself down before he reached the ground, transform something in a human shape so it would look like him and flee?
Or, what if he DID hit the ground and someone else helped him? Fawkes crying that night, and we all know phoenix tears have extrodinary healing powers, don't we?
So, I'm completely convinced Dumbledore is not dead. Either he's been somewhere else (Grimmauld Place) and an Impostor was killed, or he's been saved... I can't believe that someone like Dumbledore would be killed, even after he drunk that potion in the cave...
What do you think?
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26.09.2005 07:01 |
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Kathrina
Schülerin
Dabei seit: 11.09.2005
Herkunft: Schweiz
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Sorry, nope, no hope at all for me!
I've red all of the arguments for DD being still alive, but I just can't see Jo bringing someone back from the dead! Especially not DD, who was never afraid of dying, being over 150 years old after such a great life!
The only way he could be back is Rebirth - just as his Phoenix. But then he would be a baby, just like the Baby-Fawkes, and I can't see how useful a baby might be for Harry. But who knows? Maybe he'd adopt it: or, even better, 
he chucks the Baby-Dumbledore to the Dursleys 
I know I'm evil, but it wasn't very friendly from DD to let Harry grow up with the Dursleys. Maybe that was necessary for Harry to grow up in a cupboard so he would hate LV as he does. If DD adopted Harry, he might have been grateful to LV for that 
Joking, sorry! 
Let's come back to our topic: the most powerful argument for DD not being dead is for me is the fact how DD putted his Memory in the pensieve:
For me, the reason why DD took this memory auf of the bottle is that DD knew he was going to dye and didn’t want to lose his precious memory. That’s a prove that DD knew/suspected he was going to dye soon. He wanted to make sure Harry can see all of them, and he’s let his last will behind making sure Harry can see all the memories he’s stored for him!
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Dieser Beitrag wurde 2 mal editiert, zum letzten Mal von Kathrina: 26.09.2005 17:55.
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26.09.2005 10:17 |
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Morfin
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Hi all.
@ChingChuan: I had the same feelings about Dumbledores death. First I couldn't believe it, then I thought : Jo makes such things, but after rereading the book the third time my hope for Dumbledore not being dead raised..
First thing is Fawkes and also the fact that DD's Patronus is a Phoenix too. That can't mean just nothing.
I also noticed that when Dumbledore talks to Malfoy, (but i don't know if i understood that right..), at p.549 "Dumbledore slid a little down the ramparts" and again when he's cornered at p. 555 "as he had slid so far down the ramparts wall". Couldn't that mean that he has positioned himself so near to wall that he intented to fall from the tower out of the Death Eaters sight?
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26.09.2005 12:05 |
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Morfin
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ah, so these ramparts are some kind of roof, i thought they were plain..
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26.09.2005 12:40 |
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Drumpotter
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@Kathrina: Were you joking when you said it was mean from DD to have Harry raised by the Dursleys? He gave a reason to Professor McGonagall when she expressed her worries about Harry being raised by this family. But DD just said (at least in the film) that he'd be "far better off, growing up without it" (the trouble around him, being the one who defeated Voldemort).
@Morfin: Yes I think too, that the ramparts are some kind of wall. DD was just too tired to kepp himself standing upright. He slid down these walls further and further because his strength vanished more and more.
@ChingChuan: How was DD supposed to give something a human shape on the ground without his wand. Of course we don't know exactly where his wand flew, but I don't think that DD was so lucky that he landed just beside it to pick it up again and flee. And besides: I don't think the remaining DE to be too stupid to make sure, that DD really hit the ground beneath them.
For you all to know: Me too, I'm of the opinion that DD couldn't have possibly died like that. I always thought, that there must be at least some wizzards who can do magic without their wands. Couldn't that be true. It's just that I was always astonished that even the mightiest wizzard was stuck to his wand and helpless without it. Perhaps DD was thus performing a countspell without uttering the words?!?
Best regards
Drumpotter
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26.09.2005 14:52 |
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Kathrina
Schülerin
Dabei seit: 11.09.2005
Herkunft: Schweiz
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@Drumpotter
I was only half joking. I knew he had good reasons to do it, Harry had his mother's blood protection and he was really better of, being far of the magical society, it could have ruined his character.
But I don't find it nice either, letting him live under such awful circumstances. It could have went really badly, the Dursleys were able to ruin his character as well. Children usually don't turn to be kind and friendly when they grow up without love - see what happened to Snape, see how Tom Riddle became!
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26.09.2005 15:17 |
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Nicman 
Schüler
Dabei seit: 25.03.2005
Alter: 37
Herkunft: Belsdorf
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Even if it's hard to say I think Dumbledore is dead, because it would be a very bad joke of JKR to let someone die only to make us sad and then bring him back. That would be very hard and not funny.
I think we all have to live with the fact that Albus Dumbledore is dead.
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"Erfahrung ist fast immer eine Parodie auf die Idee."(Goethe)
"Liebe den Menschen, den du liebst, hasse den Menschen, den du hast, aber hasse niemals den Menschen, den du einmal geliebt hast."
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26.09.2005 17:06 |
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ChingChuan
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So you think Dumbledore stored all of his memories in glass bottles so they wouldn't be lost? It does make sense but I think Dumbledore has got far too much memories to store... And even if he only stored the memories which he showed to Harry in the pensieve (the Gaunts, Voldy in the orphanage, Lord Voldemorts return, Horcrux-talk-with Slughorn, point of view by the house-elf, pooint of view by *doesn't know his name anymore, it was the one who attacked Ogden with a knife and a wand, etc.) , Harry wouldn't have found them very useful because Dumbledore wouldn't be there to tell him what exactly those memories meant.
Right, of course Hermione have guessed their meanings, I'm sure yet Dumbledore would have to put his in Hermione to interpretate the memories correctly -- I don't think he'd do that.
So, to me the image of Dumbledore takign his own memories out of a bottle appears to be quite strange and maybe a hint it wasn't the real Dumbledore.
That's a good one! It also connects with the differences in the American and the Britisch edition, in the American edition you can find this:
Well, I'm a little bit tooo lazy to mark what's missing in the UK edition, but like they say on the DD-is-not-dead site, it appears like the omisions are intentional.
Well, what's exactly missing? Clues that seem to point out Dumbledore was planning to fake his death? It HAS happened before... (Think about one certain rat)
Kathrina, I also interpreted that sliding down lthe ramparts as a sign that Dumbly was dying.... But WHAT if he just tried to escape? I don't have a HBP on hand, so maybe someone wants to quote the piece which describes the tower in detail?
And I don't think it would have been wise for him to fall off the tower without good cover, because then they would have surely gone after him, wouldn't they?
He might have done Wandless Magic. Conjuring something like a body isn't that difficult... We don't know really much about Wandless Magic, but it is possible when a Wizard is scared or dangered (accidental magic).
There is no counterspell for the Avada Kedavra curse... Yet Snape's curse doesn't seem a real AK curse to me... It was green, yes, but Harry did not hear something flying through the air (compare with the killing of the Spider in the D. A. D. A. lesson in GOF or Cedric's death, also in GOF) and nowhere is daid that Dumbledore was dead before he hit the ground....
I don't think he's dead... So he hasn't got to come back from the dead.... 
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Dieser Beitrag wurde 2 mal editiert, zum letzten Mal von ChingChuan: 27.09.2005 17:28.
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27.09.2005 15:17 |
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Allons!
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He might have done Wandless Magic. Conjuring something like a body isn't that difficult... We don't know really much about Wandless Magic, but it is possible when a Wizard is scared or dangered (accidental magic).[/quote]
Even Harry was able to jiinx without even knowing a wand when he freed the snake in the zoo @home to go to Brasilia. Which is an astonishing example of his wizardry as well as his abilities concerning Patroni.
Greetz, Allons!
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27.09.2005 16:16 |
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Drumpotter
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@Allons: Sure, you're right. But we still don't know how much magic you can perform without a wand. If you say it's on occasions when a wizzard is scared or angry then you can explain the magic which was done by Harry before he became aware of being a wizzard or when he pumped up old aunt Marge. But I don't think that DD was somehow scared or angry. Why should he've been? As I've already expressed I think that the whole show was planned and DD didn't die. And the stuff having been planned, there is no reason for DD to be really scared or angry, because he would know exactly what awaits him.
Perhaps we can discuss this a little bit further, because I hold this to be very interesting.
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27.09.2005 20:18 |
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Allons!
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I just wanted to point out that if even Harry was able to j.w.w. (jinxx without wand) in former days how much should an xperienced wizard like DD be able to do so.. 
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27.09.2005 21:00 |
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GinnyWeasley
Schülerin
Dabei seit: 12.04.2004
Alter: 35
Herkunft: Berlin
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Well, after all we know, I think Dumbledore is really dead.
Dumbledore might be a great wizard, but also great wizards die when their time comes. He could have possibly conjured a body and saved himself after the fall without a wand, but I think he was already too weak. We saw him after he and Harry had came out of the cave, and we saw how many problems he had just to stay upright. The performance on the tower was authentic, and I really don't think that it was all made up just to deceive the Deatheaters.
Then, after Dumbledore had died, we saw his portrait appear in the Headmasters Office, which should be another clear sign, that Dumbledore really did die.
And - after all - we also have the interview with JKR. In this interview she says, that it is necessary for Harry to be alone, when the final combat against Voldemort is to take place. She explained why she had killed Dumbledore and it makes sense. It wouldn't be JKR if she wanted to fool us with this interview.
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27.09.2005 21:14 |
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Drumpotter
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Ok, ok. Perhaps we really have to bury our hope of DD coming back just like that (Not returning from the dead, but from his hideout whatsoever).
@Ginny Weasley: Did you read the page about DD not really being dead? I know, JKR explained it all in her interviews, but the hints on this homepage are convincing, too. Well, at least some of them.
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28.09.2005 07:44 |
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[User-Fanfiction] 
